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billcorbett:

First and foremost: I’m sorry. I don’t want to bury the lede here.

But let me back up for people who don’t know what I’m talking about..

A few days ago on Twitter, I posted these two things in quick succession:

1) My son got a Transformer for his 5th birthday and named him “Tranny.”

Appreciated, Mr. Corbett. But I’m still blocked from viewing your Twitter feed, presumably for this tweet: https://twitter.com/Lumidingo/status/220934453512507392 . If you could unblock me, I’d be double super appreciative, thanks.

maddie-sakamoto:

Kinda pissed off with loved ones who “need time to adjust” and want to “take one step at a time” because it’s “hard for them”.
I’m sorry I’m such a fucking inconvenience to you :/

http://cisnormativity.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/maybe-you-should-never-transition/

Sums it up.

I love following your posts, by the way :)

yesiamjames:


And? You could say the same thing about white people, they’re not an oppressed minority therefore racism towards them is fine or in some way less wrong?

Cis people aren’t an oppressed minority, and no one is practicing intolerance of cis people. MEANWHILE, trans people ARE an oppressed minority, and systemic intolerance and prejudice against trans people can be seen in many, varied forms across the length and breadth of society. NO one is saying cis people are unworthy or unacceptable as sexual partners due to the fact that they ARE CIS. LOTS of people are saying trans people are unacceptable as sexual partners due to the fact that they ARE TRANS.

I personally would have no problem sleeping with a transwoman, I’ve even given my girlfriend permission to sleep trans women as well as cis women. I’m just sticking up for other people’s rights to sleep with or not sleep with who ever they want for whatever reason or even no reason at all.

Did you literally specify to your girlfriend that she was free to sleep with trans women as well as cis women? Why in particular would you specify trans women as a separate group from cis women? Can you not see how differentiating cis women from trans women as two separate categories carries with it an undercurrent of transphobia, seeing as both groups are WOMEN? You’re a woman whether you’re cis or trans. The only reason people MAKE a differentiation is because of prejudice against people who happen to be trans.

As TJ said perhaps somebody would chose not to have sex with a trans person because they would like to enter a relationship with the possibility of having biological children, I don’t think that this is exactly rare for men.

No one, however, would say “I am not at all attracted to barren women, that’s just my personal preference”. There are multiple reasons why a cis woman would not be able to have a child. And, if these women never informed their partners of their condition, their partners would never know that their attempts at having a child would be fruitless. But no one is grouping up these women and saying “I could never be attracted to these women, full stop”. But they ARE doing that to trans women. Why is that?

Perhaps they aren’t experts in the medical procedure and wouldn’t have sex with a trans person out of fear of offending them if their genitalia isn’t to their liking. They may be ignorant but this isn’t bigoted.

Prehaps they don’t want to cause conflict in their family by dating a trans person. A woman may refuse to date me because I’m an atheist due to family reasons, this may be cowardly that wouldn’t make her a bigot.

That IS a bigoted situation. You’re basing your partner not on your own personal attraction, but the prejudices of others. How is that not a situation that exists out of bigotry? “I would rather appease bigots than be true to my own desires” is evidence of the inherent intolerance in society. That situation can only exist because society deems trans people as abhorrent, and a person who accepts that status quo is implicit in it. A lot of people would look at that situation and rid themselves of their bigoted family, not the person they love.

“You find me a _single_ example of someone who solely dates trans people without fetishizing trans people and I’ll give you my take on them.”

So if I found such people you would judge them on a case by case basis but not the other way around? What is your definition of fetishizing and why is it intrinsically wrong?

I do judge people on a case-by-case basis. The difference is, I judge EVERYONE on a case-by-case basis. The whole point of bigotry is that people are prepared to write off, or denigrate, an entire group of people based on one aspect of their identity. And fetishising trans people is objectifying trans people. It’s seeing them as ‘trans’ instead of ‘people’.

Seriously, do you not get that? If a trans woman never told you she was trans, you could very well be attracted to her, and you might never realize she was trans. The KNOWLEDGE of someone being trans is enough to destroy your attraction to them. If you WEREN’T transphobic, such a revelation wouldn’t even matter to you. It’s not a personal preference when you would be perfectly happy to involve yourself in a relationship with a woman, unless you ever found out she was trans. That’s like being perfectly happy with a relationship with a woman until you find out she suffers from epilepsy, or has survived ovarian cancer, or is colorblind. The fact that you are attracted to them right up to the point where they reveal their affliction to you PROVES that it’s not personal preference calling the shots here. It’s intolerance, plain and simple.

yesiamjames:

“Shaming someone for expressing transphobic views is equivalent to slut-shaming? Tell me more…”

Not wanting to have sex with somebody who is trans does not make somebody transphobic just as not wanting to have sex with somebody of the same gender isn’t homophobic. I can think of a number of legitimate reasons why somebody might make the decision not to have sex with a trans person or a cis person for that mater but at the end of the day it is THEIR choice or their sexual orientation.

If you’re a bigot, and you think that you can’t possibly be attracted to trans women, and you meet a woman and things progress and you get intimate with her… are you attracted to her? Yes. Is she a trans woman? How would you know unless she told you?

Pretending that this is the same as a hetero guy getting intimate with a gay guy is disingenuous and patently ridiculous. There is a very real possibility that you could have a sexual relationship with a trans woman and never be aware of her trans status if she didn’t inform you of it. You’d be none the wiser. Seriously, use the ‘deception’ argument. The rage is always because someone believes that a trans person is cis until they are informed otherwise. But they were still attracted before they knew! Talking about people not being attracted to trans people because of their ‘sexual orientation’ is so laughably inaccurate. You only have to look at murderers who use the ‘trans panic’ defense in order to justify killing a sexual partner who revealed themselves to be trans. The evidence is plain to see. People who are transphobic have NO issues with their attraction to trans people; the issue is entirely in their reaction to having that trans status revealed to them.

“can you maybe suggest some that might actually happen? I mean, seriously, chief, do you think that there’s a person on this planet who assumes all people are trans until proven otherwise?”

How many logical fallacies do you want to throw my way today? Another strawman and a red herring. I never said their was anyone on the planet who assumes that ALL people are trans until proven otherwise but their are certainly situations where they could wrongfully assume somebody is trans.

1. The person might have been talking about trans issues which lead the person to believe they were trans.

2. They might have a slightly masculine face/figure

3. They could be with a group of trans people.

Whether the hypothetical is realistic is besides the point though, I ask again would the person who didn’t want to have sex with a cis person necessarily by cisphobic?

The realism of the scenario is INCREDIBLY important. Cis people aren’t the targets of direct and indirect bigotry from society. Cis people aren’t an oppressed minority denied basic human rights and protection under law. It is entirely irrelevant to propose some farcical scenario where some hypothetical trans-only person only wants to sleep with trans people and would be disgusted to learn that he slept with a cis person. Not only is such a scenario completely ridiculous to the point that it literally doesn’t exist beyond the realm of creepers who objectify people specifically for their trans status (and for someone tossing around the ‘strawman’ bullshit, it’s nice to see some blatant hypocrisy in your argument), but it’s indicative of a wider problem; that you consider the divide between cis people and trans people to be so fundamentally integral to sexuality that there is actually an inherent difference that makes a trans person _utterly unlike_ a cis person. As if we’re not all just people. Your perception of trans people as separate and ‘other’ indicates your inherent transphobia. You are part of the problem.

Would you dump somebody if they told you they only dated trans people? Would you call them a biggot?

Answer Honestly!

If you answered no then maybe you need to reevaluate your position and conciser the possibility that your reasoning was emotionally driven by you finding it harder to get laid than you would if you weren’t born with a Y chromosome.

The honest answer to your query is “no such person exists”. You find me a _single_ example of someone who solely dates trans people without fetishizing trans people and I’ll give you my take on them.

amazingatheist:

This is a response to lumidingo. I have removed the conversation prior to this point, but it’s not hard to find. 

I’m not really sure how to approach your analogy about ‘hardcore weird BDSM shit’, especially the part where you say ‘how false it all is’. Being trans isn’t a fetish, it’s a fact of my existence.

You’re committing a bit of a fallacy here by overbroadly applying my analogy. I’m saying, “Apples are round, much like oranges.” And you’re saying, “Oranges don’t taste like apples!”

No, I’m at odds with you using an orange to parallel a motorbike. Your analogy is fundamentally different in too many ways for it to be relevant.

I’m not comparing BDSM to transgenderism in the sense that they’re both fetishes. The BDSM analogy was used just to show that it’s possible for a revelation that has no direct affect on a persons appearance or behavior to negatively affect a relationship, and to further show that just because a revelation negatively affects the relationship, that doesn’t imply that the nature of the revelation is being subjected to aspersion, derision, etc. 

I’m not telling someone I’m not into something they’re really into, I’m telling them something about me that makes them react very negatively. And it’s not a situation that is likely to continue; once someone reveals that they aren’t attracted to me simply because I tell them I’m trans, the relationship doesn’t continue on regardless. It ends.

Referring to instantly being turned off by someone revealing their trans status as an element of “emotional and intellectual architecture” really strikes me as trying to validate a transphobic response in stuffy words. If someone REALLY, HONESTLY and TRULY isn’t transphobic, then when I say “I’m a woman, but when I was born the doctors said I was a boy” the ideal response would be “So? You’re a woman now.” But SOMETHING about that reveal requires people to need TIME and PATIENCE and UNDERSTANDING in order to WORK AROUND or GET OVER such knowledge… or it’s TOO MUCH or a DEAL BREAKER. And why? I was a woman before I revealed this about myself, I’m a woman after I revealed this about myself.

I agree with you that it shouldn’t be a big deal. For me, it would not be. For many guys, that scenario would be something they shrugged off and said, “Okay. Well, that doesn’t change anything.” And that’s fine. 

But does that mean that a guy who does take issue with it is transphobic? I don’t think he necessarily is. Like I’ve said, sexuality is complex and multi-faceted and cannot always be expected to conform to our ideas about how things ought to be. I don’t see how you can call a person a bigot simply for rejecting a sexual partner for completely personal reasons. 

Because it’s not a personal reason. It’s a revelation that your partner is trans, when you thought they were cis, that causes you to reject them as a sexual partner. Saying “Oh I don’t think it’s a TRANSPHOBIC response, they could have any number of valid personal reasons why they were attracted to this person right up until the moment where she said she was trans!” is ridiculous. The revelation of someone being trans is what results in the loss of attraction. The reaction is a response to the reveal! You can’t be attracted to someone, find out they’re trans and instantly not be attracted to them or unable to cope with the knowledge unless you have some transphobic views or internalized negativity about trans people, especially if you’ve already shown that you WERE attracted to the person right up until they told you they’re trans.

Saying that someone is transphobic because they don’t want to be with a trans person is almost identical to saying that a person is homophobic is they themselves don’t want to be with someone of the same gender. If your argument against this contention is that a trans woman should be considered the exact same thing as a cis women—if your argument is that there is no difference—then why is there even a trans/cis distinction? 

The difference is that no one is likely to have a sexual encounter with someone of the same gender without knowing that they are of the same gender. No hetero guy is going to be attracted to a gay guy until they’re just about to take it further and then the gay guy goes “I’m gay” and the hetero guy is not attracted anymore. That’s a situation that can’t happen.

As for your query as to why there even is a trans/cis distinction? Because of the bigotry and transphobia in society. Simple. People who aren’t transphobic don’t make the distinction.

You can’t deny the element of transphobia that exists in having to consider how the revelation of one’s trans status instantly creates a BIG DEAL. The unspoken (or not unspoken, sadly) statement of “you used to be a man” that creates strife where there was none before. It all begins due to the conditional cis privilege afforded to people, where they are assumed to be cis until proven otherwise. As soon as someone chooses to reveal their trans status, that cis privilege is taken from them. They are no longer assumed to be cis, because they’ve just revealed that the opposite is the case. This is obvious stuff.

I actually don’t really disagree with any of that in any meaningful way, beyond some nitpicking. My sole problem with what you’re saying is that you’re conflating a visceral personal response with a conceptual intellectual response. They’re not the same thing. 

Here’s a question: is a man who supports gay rights 100% on every issue a homophobe? Obviously not. What if that same man was a bit personally grossed out by two guys kissing. He has no intellectual grievance with it. He doesn’t want to see it outlawed. In fact, he proudly defends it. Would he be a homophobe then? I still say no. Perhaps your answer is different. If your answer is no, then shouldn’t your answer be the same if the man in question supports the rights of transgender people 100% but doesn’t personally want to be in a relationship with one? 

If a person is okay with watching a heterosexual couple snog in public, but is ‘icked’ by a homosexual couple snogging in public, that’s a homophobic response. The guy could be ‘intellectually’ tolerant of gay people, but he’s still internalizing some form of homophobia that makes him think “aw cute” in one case and “oh gross” in the other. Do you not agree? That doesn’t mean he’s going to be waving a “GOD HATES FAGS” sign about. But it’s still an example of homophobia.

Much the same as a person who ‘intellectually’ wishes no ill on trans people, and wants them to have equal rights, but is ‘icked’ by the thought of being intimate with a trans person. That’s an example of transphobia. If they weren’t internalizing some form of transphobia, then it wouldn’t MATTER to them. But they are, and so it does.

yesiamjames:

lumidingo:

amazingatheist:

As I’ve talked about before, there really isn’t any universal or consistent outward trait common to all trans women. Logically, one can’t possibly experience a basic sexual attraction to cis women but not trans women, at least not while claiming that supposed lack of attraction has anything to do with trans women and trans bodies. It’s about how you perceive trans women. What you’re “not attracted to” is women you KNOW are trans, the IDEA of trans women, the CONCEPT. Which is inherently tied into cultural perceptions. You’d have the same reaction to a cis woman claiming to be trans as you would to an actual trans woman. It’s about your perceptions, not our bodies.

That’s retarded and shallow. You’re basically making the statement that it’s not okay to choose sexual partners based on anything other than appearance, and that our sexuality should conform to your social views. 

I personally would not be bothered by the prospect of sleeping with a trans female, but if I were, it would be a perfectly acceptable way to feel, depending on the reasoning.

There are people who have sex only for the sake of procreation, for instance. Gender reassignment surgery is very effective, but it’s not yet reached the point where a trans female can get pregnant. So, if I were a religious type who believed sex was solely for procreation, that would be a reason to not have sex with a trans woman that has nothing to do with her being born biologically male.

If that example is too obscure, then follow this line of argument: I’m not particularly sexually attracted to Asian people, on average. Does that make me racist? No. I have no problems with Asian people, but for reasons beyond my control, I am not aroused by them as much as I am by other races (though their are obvious exceptions to this). Would you call me a racist for this? Then is a gay man with no sexual interest in the female figure a sexist? 

“But those are physical characteristics,” you may protest, “whereas many trans females are physically indiscernible from cis females.” Okay. So are you saying that sexual attraction is purely physical? Are you saying that a person’s feelings and experiences are irrelevant to attraction? There are people who I’ve been physically attracted to, then talked to them and realized that I just don’t feel any connection to them at all. Why? Maybe I didn’t like their sense of humor. Does that mean I’m against them as people? That I’m a bigot who hates all people with that particular sense of humor? No. It’s just something that I find to be a turn-off.  

A guy who has difficulty with the notion that the woman he’s with was born with a penis is not necessarily transphobic. You trying to shame guys who feel that way into thinking that they must be horrible bigots is contemptible. Human sexuality is a complex, multi-faceted thing. Expecting it to conform to social niceties is stupid. Treating it as though it should reflect a person’s carefully thought-out positions is also stupid.

I think that there is enough real bigotry in the world. You don’t need to go seeing bigotry where none exists.   

The bigotry would be obvious if you gave it some credible thought.

A particularly transphobic argument used again and again is the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ a potential partner by revealing her trans status. This hypothetical scenario begins with the initial assumption that the trans woman in question is in a situation where she is being considered as a sexual partner by the other participant in this scenario. If she’s being considered as a sexual partner prior to revealing her status as trans, then logically she is regarded as attractive enough to pursue an intimate relationship with. It is only after she reveals her trans status that this attraction is withdrawn. People who argue that they aren’t attracted to trans people don’t seem to recognize the conditional privilege inherent in this chain of events; that prior to knowing of someone’s trans status, they may very well be attracted to a trans person, simply because they assume the potential partner to be cis. If the revelation that the person in front of you is trans instantly revokes that attraction, it’s blatantly obvious that an element of intolerance towards transsexual people exists.

Arguing that you simply aren’t attracted to people of one race or another isn’t applicable, because the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ their partner relies on the presumption of that partner being attracted to them to begin with. If you’re attracted to someone before knowing of their trans status, and not attracted to them after knowing of their trans status, clearly _SOMETHING_ about their trans status is causing a negative reaction. And that’s transphobic.

What if somebody has a preference for trans women and then decides they don’t want to sleep with a woman after they reveal their cis status? Does that make them cisphobic?

What if a man decides they don’t want to pursue a relationship with a woman after she reviles that she wants to work whilst the man stays at home? Does that mean they have white male cis hetro privilege and they’re sexist patriarchy supporters?

I have a very wide sexual preference but I stand up for those with more narrow tastes. 

“If you don’t find black women attractive you’re racist.”

“If you don’t like women with small/big breasts or blonde/brown hair you’re shallow!”

“How do you know you’re gay if you’ve never slept with a woman?”

“If you don’t try anal sex you’re frigid.”

“If you won’t try a finger up the bum you’re not confident in you’re sexuality”

I hate bullshit like this! Shaming somebody for not engaging in a sexual act or entering a relationship with another person for ANY reason is wrong and it’s just as bad as slut-shaming.

Shaming someone for expressing transphobic views is equivalent to slut-shaming? Tell me more…

Oh, and the next time you’re attempting to validate your point with hypothetical scenarios, can you maybe suggest some that might actually happen? I mean, seriously, chief, do you think that there’s a person on this planet who assumes all people are trans until proven otherwise?

amazingatheist:

lumidingo:

amazingatheist:

As I’ve talked about before, there really isn’t any universal or consistent outward trait common to all trans women. Logically, one can’t possibly experience a basic sexual attraction to cis women but not trans women, at least not while claiming that supposed lack of attraction has anything to do with trans women and trans bodies. It’s about how you perceive trans women. What you’re “not attracted to” is women you KNOW are trans, the IDEA of trans women, the CONCEPT. Which is inherently tied into cultural perceptions. You’d have the same reaction to a cis woman claiming to be trans as you would to an actual trans woman. It’s about your perceptions, not our bodies.

That’s retarded and shallow. You’re basically making the statement that it’s not okay to choose sexual partners based on anything other than appearance, and that our sexuality should conform to your social views. 

I personally would not be bothered by the prospect of sleeping with a trans female, but if I were, it would be a perfectly acceptable way to feel, depending on the reasoning.

There are people who have sex only for the sake of procreation, for instance. Gender reassignment surgery is very effective, but it’s not yet reached the point where a trans female can get pregnant. So, if I were a religious type who believed sex was solely for procreation, that would be a reason to not have sex with a trans woman that has nothing to do with her being born biologically male.

If that example is too obscure, then follow this line of argument: I’m not particularly sexually attracted to Asian people, on average. Does that make me racist? No. I have no problems with Asian people, but for reasons beyond my control, I am not aroused by them as much as I am by other races (though their are obvious exceptions to this). Would you call me a racist for this? Then is a gay man with no sexual interest in the female figure a sexist? 

“But those are physical characteristics,” you may protest, “whereas many trans females are physically indiscernible from cis females.” Okay. So are you saying that sexual attraction is purely physical? Are you saying that a person’s feelings and experiences are irrelevant to attraction? There are people who I’ve been physically attracted to, then talked to them and realized that I just don’t feel any connection to them at all. Why? Maybe I didn’t like their sense of humor. Does that mean I’m against them as people? That I’m a bigot who hates all people with that particular sense of humor? No. It’s just something that I find to be a turn-off.  

A guy who has difficulty with the notion that the woman he’s with was born with a penis is not necessarily transphobic. You trying to shame guys who feel that way into thinking that they must be horrible bigots is contemptible. Human sexuality is a complex, multi-faceted thing. Expecting it to conform to social niceties is stupid. Treating it as though it should reflect a person’s carefully thought-out positions is also stupid.

I think that there is enough real bigotry in the world. You don’t need to go seeing bigotry where none exists.   

The bigotry would be obvious if you gave it some credible thought.

A particularly transphobic argument used again and again is the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ a potential partner by revealing her trans status. This hypothetical scenario begins with the initial assumption that the trans woman in question is in a situation where she is being considered as a sexual partner by the other participant in this scenario. If she’s being considered as a sexual partner prior to revealing her status as trans, then logically she is regarded as attractive enough to pursue an intimate relationship with. It is only after she reveals her trans status that this attraction is withdrawn. People who argue that they aren’t attracted to trans people don’t seem to recognize the conditional privilege inherent in this chain of events; that prior to knowing of someone’s trans status, they may very well be attracted to a trans person, simply because they assume the potential partner to be cis. If the revelation that the person in front of you is trans instantly revokes that attraction, it’s blatantly obvious that an element of intolerance towards transsexual people exists.

Arguing that you simply aren’t attracted to people of one race or another isn’t applicable, because the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ their partner relies on the presumption of that partner being attracted to them to begin with. If you’re attracted to someone before knowing of their trans status, and not attracted to them after knowing of their trans status, clearly _SOMETHING_ about their trans status is causing a negative reaction. And that’s transphobic.

I can see your point of view, but let’s see if there are parallels. Let’s say I’m dating someone, and after a particularly hot session of hardcore weird BDSM shit, they confess, “I’m not really into BDSM. I just do it for you. And I will continue to do it for you, even though I don’t like it.”

If there anything wrong with them not being into BDSM? No. Of course not. Would I consider myself “deceived”? Of course not. No one is completely forthright in the initial stages of a relationship. Candor is built over time through trust. Would it effect my relationship with them? Yes. Even though they’re the same person physically, and they’re behavior is also the same, the mental context has changed. Now, when they’re spanking me, all I can think about is how false it is. The emotional and intellectual context of what we have has been changed for me. At this point, I can choose to end the relationship or to try to overcome my emotional difficulties or to make adjustments to the relationship address the issues brought up by this revelation. 

Now, if I was dating a girl, and it turns out she was transgender, I would not be bothered in the slightest. But if someone else was bothered, if it did change the emotional and intellectual architecture of the relationship for them, that is not a condemnation of transgender people or intolerance. People do not have control over what they’re attracted to. Nor does not being attracted to something about a person equate to a condemnation of that trait. 

Personally, if someone came to me and said they were having difficulty accepting the revelation that their partner is transgender, I would tell them to give it time and try to overcome the issue. It really is a silly reason to dump someone. But if it’s something they can’t overcome, I wouldn’t call them transphobic. Though I might start thinking of them as being emotionally or intellectually weak-minded.   

I’m not really sure how to approach your analogy about ‘hardcore weird BDSM shit’, especially the part where you say ‘how false it all is’. Being trans isn’t a fetish, it’s a fact of my existence. I’m not telling someone I’m not into something they’re really into, I’m telling them something about me that makes them react very negatively. And it’s not a situation that is likely to continue; once someone reveals that they aren’t attracted to me simply because I tell them I’m trans, the relationship doesn’t continue on regardless. It ends.

Referring to instantly being turned off by someone revealing their trans status as an element of “emotional and intellectual architecture” really strikes me as trying to validate a transphobic response in stuffy words. If someone REALLY, HONESTLY and TRULY isn’t transphobic, then when I say “I’m a woman, but when I was born the doctors said I was a boy” the ideal response would be “So? You’re a woman now.” But SOMETHING about that reveal requires people to need TIME and PATIENCE and UNDERSTANDING in order to WORK AROUND or GET OVER such knowledge… or it’s TOO MUCH or a DEAL BREAKER. And why? I was a woman before I revealed this about myself, I’m a woman after I revealed this about myself.

You can’t deny the element of transphobia that exists in having to consider how the revelation of one’s trans status instantly creates a BIG DEAL. The unspoken (or not unspoken, sadly) statement of “you used to be a man” that creates strife where there was none before. It all begins due to the conditional cis privilege afforded to people, where they are assumed to be cis until proven otherwise. As soon as someone chooses to reveal their trans status, that cis privilege is taken from them. They are no longer assumed to be cis, because they’ve just revealed that the opposite is the case. This is obvious stuff.

I mean, are you seriously arguing that it’s not transphobia, it’s some nebulous concept of attraction and chemistry that only exists when one person is assumed to be cis when they aren’t? How can that be anything BUT a transphobic response?

amazingatheist:

As I’ve talked about before, there really isn’t any universal or consistent outward trait common to all trans women. Logically, one can’t possibly experience a basic sexual attraction to cis women but not trans women, at least not while claiming that supposed lack of attraction has anything to do with trans women and trans bodies. It’s about how you perceive trans women. What you’re “not attracted to” is women you KNOW are trans, the IDEA of trans women, the CONCEPT. Which is inherently tied into cultural perceptions. You’d have the same reaction to a cis woman claiming to be trans as you would to an actual trans woman. It’s about your perceptions, not our bodies.

That’s retarded and shallow. You’re basically making the statement that it’s not okay to choose sexual partners based on anything other than appearance, and that our sexuality should conform to your social views. 

I personally would not be bothered by the prospect of sleeping with a trans female, but if I were, it would be a perfectly acceptable way to feel, depending on the reasoning.

There are people who have sex only for the sake of procreation, for instance. Gender reassignment surgery is very effective, but it’s not yet reached the point where a trans female can get pregnant. So, if I were a religious type who believed sex was solely for procreation, that would be a reason to not have sex with a trans woman that has nothing to do with her being born biologically male.

If that example is too obscure, then follow this line of argument: I’m not particularly sexually attracted to Asian people, on average. Does that make me racist? No. I have no problems with Asian people, but for reasons beyond my control, I am not aroused by them as much as I am by other races (though their are obvious exceptions to this). Would you call me a racist for this? Then is a gay man with no sexual interest in the female figure a sexist? 

“But those are physical characteristics,” you may protest, “whereas many trans females are physically indiscernible from cis females.” Okay. So are you saying that sexual attraction is purely physical? Are you saying that a person’s feelings and experiences are irrelevant to attraction? There are people who I’ve been physically attracted to, then talked to them and realized that I just don’t feel any connection to them at all. Why? Maybe I didn’t like their sense of humor. Does that mean I’m against them as people? That I’m a bigot who hates all people with that particular sense of humor? No. It’s just something that I find to be a turn-off.  

A guy who has difficulty with the notion that the woman he’s with was born with a penis is not necessarily transphobic. You trying to shame guys who feel that way into thinking that they must be horrible bigots is contemptible. Human sexuality is a complex, multi-faceted thing. Expecting it to conform to social niceties is stupid. Treating it as though it should reflect a person’s carefully thought-out positions is also stupid.

I think that there is enough real bigotry in the world. You don’t need to go seeing bigotry where none exists.   

The bigotry would be obvious if you gave it some credible thought.

A particularly transphobic argument used again and again is the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ a potential partner by revealing her trans status. This hypothetical scenario begins with the initial assumption that the trans woman in question is in a situation where she is being considered as a sexual partner by the other participant in this scenario. If she’s being considered as a sexual partner prior to revealing her status as trans, then logically she is regarded as attractive enough to pursue an intimate relationship with. It is only after she reveals her trans status that this attraction is withdrawn. People who argue that they aren’t attracted to trans people don’t seem to recognize the conditional privilege inherent in this chain of events; that prior to knowing of someone’s trans status, they may very well be attracted to a trans person, simply because they assume the potential partner to be cis. If the revelation that the person in front of you is trans instantly revokes that attraction, it’s blatantly obvious that an element of intolerance towards transsexual people exists.

Arguing that you simply aren’t attracted to people of one race or another isn’t applicable, because the concept of a trans woman ‘deceiving’ their partner relies on the presumption of that partner being attracted to them to begin with. If you’re attracted to someone before knowing of their trans status, and not attracted to them after knowing of their trans status, clearly _SOMETHING_ about their trans status is causing a negative reaction. And that’s transphobic.

nuclearcatastrophy:

thedawnrenewed:

nevillesweaterappreciationlife:

janedoe225:

die cis scum is kinda like on the same level as the word breeder

or like cracker

cause, it’s like, mean how is this word hurting you?

like i love watching conan but like every other night he’s making jokes about chaz bono. and like,…

I… Okay, I kind of… Look, here’s my response to critique of Die Cis Scum, just take it as it is.

Cis people murder a trans person every 3 days. Cis people foster the kind of toxic culture which leaves trans people with a 50 fucking percent rate of attempted suicide - and that’s only counting the survivors. Some estimates put a trans person’s life expectancy in the mid twenties. The average here is eighty.

Die Cis Scum isn’t retribution, Die Cis Scum isn’t a response to transphobia at all. It doesn’t even come close to the kind of soul-destroying, constant, grinding hatred trans people are subjected every single day until they die.

I get that as a cis person, you can feel threatened by Die Cis Scum, I totally understand that you feel hurt by this. But nobody, ever, is going to brutally torture you to death for being cis.

Yes, it is impolite to say Die Cis Scum. But given the fucking appalling treatment trans people face, I think we can all just let it go.

While I completely sympathize with the hurt, anger and hatred the whole “Cis Scum” thing originates from, I think the whole thing is just coming off as immature, and these people are only hurting their own cause. There needs to be taken some proper action about what trans people more often than not have to go through, but I can’t imagine anyone taking this seriously. In the end, all there’s going to be to this is cis people getting offended and feel like there’s finally reason for their prejudices.

In the end, fighting hatred with hatred won’t get you anywhere, and at the moment I’m seeing more death threats against cis people than intelligently phrased arguments to make people think, and help spreading insight, knowledge and acceptance about the cause.

Yes, it’s stupid to get offended by this considering the circumstances it stems from, but the sad truth is that most people simply aren’t aware of what’s going on, and so at this point to many the attack will seem random and aggressive and in the end just help fuel more hatred.

Trans people should stop being aggressively frustrated because of the drastic imbalance and injustice perpetuated against them by the majority of society… because the majority of society will just accuse them of being hostile?

Meanwhile more trans people die at the hands of cis bigots, and general transphobia and bigotry can be witnessed literally every day in all number of forms, whether it’s pointing out the “tranny shemale” in the supermarket to health insurance companies willfully denying treatment to trans people against all medical evidence to being referred to as ‘sinful homosexual abominations’ by religious leaders to fucking greeting cards containing transphobic slurs being sold to the rape and murder of trans men and women?

Seriously… what the fuck do we have to lose?